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List: western_monarchs
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2017 15:33:25 -0400
From: Mona Miller <runmede...> [western_monarchs] <western_monarchs...>
Subject: Re: [western_monarchs] Permanent Marker Destroys Monarch Wings

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This is what one of the scientist said on the Monarch Watch email list:
"Long ago, I did extensive mark-recapture studies of a different butterfly
(Euphydryas gillettii) in the field, and I marked them on the wings with
black marks from a Sharpie magic marker. Inevitably, older individuals
(re-seen or recaptured over multiple days) had the wing membrane weakened
and torn where I had marked them. When I started the study, I didn't expect
marking to have any effect, but by the end it was obvious that permanent
markers do, in fact, lead to weakened places on the wings. It looks as
though that's what you're seeing here.
Ernest Williams"

On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 3:28 PM, Donald Davis <donald_davis...>
[western_monarchs] <western_monarchs...> wrote:

>
>
> Interesting passage on using marker pen inks on fruit flies:
>
> "Marker pen ink is inexpensive, clearly identifiable on recapture, and,
> has no relevant effect on
> the longevity of three species of Drosophilidae (D. simulans, D.
> malerkotliana, and Z. indianus). Since this material allows marking a
> higher number of individuals, does not impregnate sense organs throughout
> the body and is more persistent on the insect, we suggest its use for
> individual-based studies, long-term studies, and those in which sense
> organs are determinants for trustworthy results."
>
> http://www.ou.edu/journals/dis/DIS92/Doge%20123.pdf
> Paul's comments are accurate with regard to the extensive use of felt tip
> markers by a number of monarch programs over many years.
>
> While I did ask some questions, a better question would have been: "What
> clear evidence exists that Sharpie markers do harm monarchs in light of
> their extensive use over many years in research projects and other studie=
s?"
>
> *Don Davis*
>
> *Toronto, Ontario, Canada*
> [image: butterfly animation]
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, October 4, 2017, 2:04:42 PM EDT, Paul Cherubini
> <monarch...> [western_monarchs] <western_monarchs...>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> https://flic.kr/s/aHsm6jFXsG
>
> These are before and after photos,
>
>
> Those are not before and after photos of the same butterfly
> because the top one is a male, bottom one a female.
>
> Monarch Alert and Monarch Program researchers used sharpie
> permanent markers on overwintering monarchs for years without
> a wing hole problem that I have seen or heard about. Perhaps just
> newly emerged monarchs are susceptible to wing damage?
>
> Paul Cherubini
> El Dorado, Calif.
>
>=20
>



--=20
Mona Miller
Herndon, VA (USA) }i{ }i{ }i{
Raising Butterflies and Moths for Conservation (+ All Pollinators)
www.facebook.com/groups/butterflyandmothconservation/

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"color:rgb(29,33,41);font-family:Helvetica,A=
rial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">This is what one of the scientist said on t=
he Monarch Watch email list:</span><br style=3D"color:rgb(29,33,41);font-fa=
mily:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><span style=3D"color:rgb(29=
,33,41);font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">&quot;Long a=
go, I did extensive mark-recapture studies of a different butterfly (Euphyd=
ryas gillettii) in the field, and I marked them on the wings with black mar=
ks from a Sharpie magic marker. Inevitably, older individuals (re-seen or r=
ecaptured over multiple days) had the wing membrane weakened and torn where=
I had marked them. When I started the study, I didn&#39;t expect marking t=
o have any effect, but by the end it was obvious that permanent markers do,=
in fact, lead to weakened places on the wings. It looks as though that&#39=
;s what you&#39;re seeing here.</span><br style=3D"color:rgb(29,33,41);font=
-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><span style=3D"color:rgb=
(29,33,41);font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">Ernest Wi=
lliams&quot;</span><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"g=
mail_quote">On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 3:28 PM, Donald Davis <a href=3D"mailto:=
<donald_davis...>"><donald_davis...></a> [western_monarchs] <span=
dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:<western_monarchs...>" target=
=3D"_blank"><western_monarchs...></a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left:1ex">


<u></u>









=20
<div style=3D"background-color:#fff">
<span style=3D"display:none">=C2=A0</span>


<div id=3D"m_-2687707818335715587ygrp-mlmsg">
<div id=3D"m_-2687707818335715587ygrp-msg">


<div id=3D"m_-2687707818335715587ygrp-text">
=20=20=20=20=20=20
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<p></p><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-=
serif;font-size:16px"><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Ar=
ial,sans-serif;font-size:16px"><div><div>Interesting passage on using marke=
r pen inks on fruit flies: </div><div><br></div><div><div style=3D"font-siz=
e:20px;font-family:serif">&quot;Marker pen ink is inexpensive, clearly iden=
tifiable on recapture, and, has no relevant effect on </div><div style=3D"f=
ont-size:20px;font-family:serif">the longevity of three species of Dr=
osophilidae (D. simulans, D. malerkotliana, and Z. indianus). Since th=
is material allows marking a higher number of individuals, does not impregn=
ate sense organs throughout the body and is more persistent on the =
insect, we suggest its use for individual-based studies, long-term s=
tudies, and those in which sense organs are determinants for trustworthy re=
sults.&quot;<br></div></div><div><p class=3D"m_-2687707818335715587ydpe9db4=
1d1MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://www.ou.edu/journals/dis/DIS92/Doge%20123.pd=
f" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ou.edu/journals/<wbr>dis/D=
IS92/Doge%20123.pdf</a></p>

<div>Paul&#39;s comments are accurate with regard to the extensive use of f=
elt tip markers by a number of monarch programs over many years. <br></div>=
<div class=3D"m_-2687707818335715587ydpe9db41d1MsoNormal"><div><span><br></=
span></div><div><span>While I did ask some questions, a better question wou=
ld have been: &quot;What clear evidence exists that Sharpie markers do harm=
monarchs in light of their extensive use over many years in research proje=
cts and other studies?&quot;</span></div></div>





</div><span class=3D""><div class=3D"m_-2687707818335715587ydpb214d987signa=
ture"><div><b><span style=3D"font-size:24.0pt;color:#c00000" lang=3D"EN-CA"=
></span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:24.0pt;color:#c00000" lang=3D"EN-CA=
"> </span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:24.0pt;color:#c00000" lang=3D"EN-=
CA"></span></b>

<p class=3D"m_-2687707818335715587ydpb214d987MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:24.0pt;color:#c00000" lang=3D"EN-CA">Don Davis</span></b></p>

<font size=3D"3"><font face=3D"Times New Roman"><b>Toronto, Ontario, Canada=
<br></b></font></font><br><img alt=3D"butterfly animation" width=3D"433" bo=
rder=3D"0" height=3D"52"><br><br></div></div></span></div>
<div><br></div><div><br></div>
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</div><span class=3D""><div id=3D"m_-2687707818335715587ydp3945=
2d5eyahoo_quoted_7246105412" class=3D"m_-2687707818335715587ydp39452d5eyaho=
o_quoted">
<div style=3D"font-family:&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetic=
a,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a">
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20
<div>
On Wednesday, October 4, 2017, 2:04:42 PM EDT, Paul=
Cherubini <a href=3D"mailto:<monarch...>" target=3D"_blank">monarch@s=
aber.net</a> [western_monarchs] &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:western_monarchs@yaho=
ogroups.com" target=3D"_blank">western_monarchs@yahoogroups.<wbr>com</a>&gt=
; wrote:
</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><div id=3D"m_-2687707818335715587ydp39452d5eyiv672=
4916739"><div>
<span>=C2=A0</span>


<div id=3D"m_-2687707818335715587ydp39452d5eyiv6724916739ygrp-mlmsg">
<div id=3D"m_-2687707818335715587ydp39452d5eyiv6724916739ygrp-msg">


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<p><br class=3D"m_-2687707818335715587ydp39452d5eyiv6724916739class" =
clear=3D"none"></p><div><blockquote class=3D"m_-2687707818335715587ydp39452=
d5eyiv6724916739class" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D"m_-2687707818335715587yd=
p39452d5eyiv6724916739class"><a shape=3D"rect" class=3D"m_-2687707818335715=
587ydp39452d5eyiv6724916739class" href=3D"https://flic.kr/s/aHsm6jFXsG" rel=
=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">https://flic.kr/s/aHsm6jFXsG</a></div></blo=
ckquote><blockquote class=3D"m_-2687707818335715587ydp39452d5eyiv6724916739=
class" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D"m_-2687707818335715587ydp39452d5eyiv6724=
916739class">These are before and after photos, </div></blockquote><div><br=
class=3D"m_-2687707818335715587ydp39452d5eyiv6724916739class" clear=3D"non=
e"></div>Those are not before and after photos of the same butterfly</div><=
div>because the top one is a male, bottom one a female.</div><div><br class=
=3D"m_-2687707818335715587ydp39452d5eyiv6724916739class" clear=3D"none"></d=
iv><div>Monarch Alert and Monarch Program researchers used sharpie=C2=A0</d=
iv><div>permanent markers on overwintering monarchs for years without=C2=A0=
</div><div>a wing hole problem that I have seen or heard about. Perhaps jus=
t=C2=A0</div><div>newly emerged monarchs are susceptible to wing damage?</d=
iv><div><br class=3D"m_-2687707818335715587ydp39452d5eyiv6724916739class" c=
lear=3D"none"></div><div>Paul Cherubini</div><div>El Dorado, Calif.</div>

</div>
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</div></div></div>
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</div></div></span></div><p></p>

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</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=
=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Mona Miller<br>Hern=
don, VA (USA) }i{ }i{ }i{<br>Raising Butterflies and Moths for Conservation=
(+ All Pollinators)<br><a href=3D"http://www.facebook.com/groups/butterfly=
andmothconservation/" target=3D"_blank">www.facebook.com/groups/butterflyan=
dmothconservation/</a> =C2=A0</div>
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