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Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2017 14:15:35 -0700
From: 'Georgia Goldfarb, M.D.' <georgia.goldfarb...> [western_monarchs] <western_monarchs...>
Subject: RE: [western_monarchs] Permanent Marker Destroys Monarch Wings

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Thanks for the update on markers from Mona and Earnest.

=20

=20

From: <western_monarchs...> [mailto:western_monarchs@yahoogroups=
.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2017 12:33 PM
To: Western Monarch News <western_monarchs...>
Subject: Re: [western_monarchs] Permanent Marker Destroys Monarch Wings

=20

=20=20

This is what one of the scientist said on the Monarch Watch email list:
"Long ago, I did extensive mark-recapture studies of a different butterfly =
(Euphydryas gillettii) in the field, and I marked them on the wings with bl=
ack marks from a Sharpie magic marker. Inevitably, older individuals (re-se=
en or recaptured over multiple days) had the wing membrane weakened and tor=
n where I had marked them. When I started the study, I didn't expect markin=
g to have any effect, but by the end it was obvious that permanent markers =
do, in fact, lead to weakened places on the wings. It looks as though that'=
s what you're seeing here.
Ernest Williams"

=20

On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 3:28 PM, Donald Davis <donald_davis...> <mailto=
:<donald_davis...> [western_monarchs] <western_monarchs@yahoogroups.=
com <mailto:<western_monarchs...> > wrote:

=20=20

Interesting passage on using marker pen inks on fruit flies:=20

=20

"Marker pen ink is inexpensive, clearly identifiable on recapture, and, has=
no relevant effect on=20

the longevity of three species of Drosophilidae (D. simulans, D. malerkotli=
ana, and Z. indianus). Since this material allows marking a higher number o=
f individuals, does not impregnate sense organs throughout the body and is =
more persistent on the insect, we suggest its use for individual-based stud=
ies, long-term studies, and those in which sense organs are determinants fo=
r trustworthy results."

http://www.ou.edu/journals/dis/DIS92/Doge%20123.pdf

Paul's comments are accurate with regard to the extensive use of felt tip m=
arkers by a number of monarch programs over many years.=20

=20

While I did ask some questions, a better question would have been: "What cl=
ear evidence exists that Sharpie markers do harm monarchs in light of their=
extensive use over many years in research projects and other studies?"

Don Davis

Toronto, Ontario, Canada



=20

=20

On Wednesday, October 4, 2017, 2:04:42 PM EDT, Paul Cherubini monarch@saber=
.net <mailto:<monarch...> [western_monarchs] <western_monarchs@yahoo=
groups.com <mailto:<western_monarchs...> > wrote:=20

=20

=20

=20=20

=20

https://flic.kr/s/aHsm6jFXsG

These are before and after photos,=20

=20

Those are not before and after photos of the same butterfly

because the top one is a male, bottom one a female.

=20

Monarch Alert and Monarch Program researchers used sharpie=20

permanent markers on overwintering monarchs for years without=20

a wing hole problem that I have seen or heard about. Perhaps just=20

newly emerged monarchs are susceptible to wing damage?

=20

Paul Cherubini

El Dorado, Calif.





=20

--=20

Mona Miller
Herndon, VA (USA) }i{ }i{ }i{
Raising Butterflies and Moths for Conservation (+ All Pollinators)
www.facebook.com/groups/butterflyandmothconservation/ <http://www.facebook.=
com/groups/butterflyandmothconservation/>=20=20=20




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<div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Thanks for the update o=
n markers from Mona and Earnest.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>=
<span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F4=
97D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p=
></span></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;p=
adding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'fon=
t-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> western_monarchs@yahoogrou=
ps.com [mailto:<western_monarchs...>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday=
, October 04, 2017 12:33 PM<br><b>To:</b> Western Monarch News &lt;western_=
<monarchs...>&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [western_monarchs] Perm=
anent Marker Destroys Monarch Wings<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; <o:p></o:p>=
</p><div id=3Dygrp-mlmsg><div id=3Dygrp-msg><div id=3Dygrp-text><div><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans=
-serif;color:#1D2129'>This is what one of the scientist said on the Monarch=
Watch email list:<br>&quot;Long ago, I did extensive mark-recapture studie=
s of a different butterfly (Euphydryas gillettii) in the field, and I marke=
d them on the wings with black marks from a Sharpie magic marker. Inevitabl=
y, older individuals (re-seen or recaptured over multiple days) had the win=
g membrane weakened and torn where I had marked them. When I started the st=
udy, I didn't expect marking to have any effect, but by the end it was obvi=
ous that permanent markers do, in fact, lead to weakened places on the wing=
s. It looks as though that's what you're seeing here.<br>Ernest Williams&qu=
ot;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p><=
/p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 3:28 PM, Donald Davis <=
a href=3D"mailto:<donald_davis...>"><donald_davis...></a> [wester=
n_monarchs] &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:<western_monarchs...>" target=
=3D"_blank"><western_monarchs...></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><=
blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in=
0in 0in 0in;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l style=3D'background:white'>&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p><div id=3D"m_-2687707818=
335715587ygrp-mlmsg"><div id=3D"m_-2687707818335715587ygrp-msg"><div id=3D"=
m_-2687707818335715587ygrp-text"><div><div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal s=
tyle=3D'background:white'><span style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif=
'>Interesting passage on using marker pen inks on fruit flies: <o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></=
div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:white'><span style=
=3D'font-size:15.0pt'>&quot;Marker pen ink is inexpensive, clearly identifi=
able on recapture, and, has no relevant effect on <o:p></o:p></span></p></d=
iv><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:white'><span style=3D'font=
-size:15.0pt'>the longevity of three species of Drosophilidae (D. simulans,=
D. malerkotliana, and Z. indianus). Since this material allows marking a h=
igher number of individuals, does not impregnate sense organs throughout th=
e body and is more persistent on the insect, we suggest its use for individ=
ual-based studies, long-term studies, and those in which sense organs are d=
eterminants for trustworthy results.&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div=
><div><p class=3Dm-2687707818335715587ydpe9db41d1msonormal style=3D'backgro=
und:white'><span style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><a href=3D"ht=
tp://www.ou.edu/journals/dis/DIS92/Doge%20123.pdf" target=3D"_blank">http:/=
/www.ou.edu/journals/dis/DIS92/Doge%20123.pdf</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><div=
><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:white'><span style=3D'font-family=
:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>Paul's comments are accurate with regard to the ex=
tensive use of felt tip markers by a number of monarch programs over many y=
ears. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'b=
ackground:white'><span style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:wh=
ite'><span style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>While I did ask som=
e questions, a better question would have been: &quot;What clear evidence e=
xists that Sharpie markers do harm monarchs in light of their extensive use=
over many years in research projects and other studies?&quot;<o:p></o:p></=
span></p></div></div></div><div><div><p class=3Dm-2687707818335715587ydpb21=
4d987msonormal style=3D'background:white'><b><span lang=3DEN-CA style=3D'fo=
nt-size:24.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#C00000'>Don Davis<=
/span></b><span style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white=
'><b>Toronto, Ontario, Canada<br></b><span style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica"=
,sans-serif'><br><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><p class=3DMs=
oNormal style=3D'background:white'><span style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica",s=
ans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal styl=
e=3D'background:white'><span style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div></div><div id=3D"m_-2687707818335715587ydp=
39452d5eyahoo_quoted_7246105412"><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'ba=
ckground:white'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",san=
s-serif;color:#26282A'>On Wednesday, October 4, 2017, 2:04:42 PM EDT, Paul =
Cherubini <a href=3D"mailto:<monarch...>" target=3D"_blank">monarch@sa=
ber.net</a> [western_monarchs] &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:western_monarchs@yahoo=
groups.com" target=3D"_blank"><western_monarchs...></a>&gt; wrot=
e: <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'backgroun=
d:white'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif=
;color:#26282A'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal=
style=3D'background:white'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"He=
lvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><=
div id=3D"m_-2687707818335715587ydp39452d5eyiv6724916739"><div><p class=3DM=
soNormal style=3D'background:white'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A'>&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p><di=
v id=3D"m_-2687707818335715587ydp39452d5eyiv6724916739ygrp-mlmsg"><div id=
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687707818335715587ydp39452d5eyiv6724916739ygrp-text"><p style=3D'background=
:white'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;=
color:#26282A'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><blockquote style=3D'margin=
-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'backgrou=
nd:white'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-seri=
f;color:#26282A'><a href=3D"https://flic.kr/s/aHsm6jFXsG" target=3D"_blank"=
>https://flic.kr/s/aHsm6jFXsG</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></blockquote><=
blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=3DM=
soNormal style=3D'background:white'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A'>These are before and after photo=
s, <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></blockquote><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=
=3D'background:white'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetic=
a",sans-serif;color:#26282A'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DM=
soNormal style=3D'background:white'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A'>Those are not before and after p=
hotos of the same butterfly<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal style=3D'background:white'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-famil=
y:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A'>because the top one is a male, bott=
om one a female.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=
=3D'background:white'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetic=
a",sans-serif;color:#26282A'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:white'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A'>Monarch Alert and Monarch P=
rogram researchers used sharpie&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:white'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;=
font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A'>permanent markers on over=
wintering monarchs for years without&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:white'><span style=3D'font-size:10=
.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A'>a wing hole problem =
that I have seen or heard about. Perhaps just&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></=
div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:white'><span style=3D'fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A'>newly emerg=
ed monarchs are susceptible to wing damage?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div=
><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:white'><span style=3D'font-size:1=
0.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:white'><span s=
tyle=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A'>=
Paul Cherubini<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=
=3D'background:white'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetic=
a",sans-serif;color:#26282A'>El Dorado, Calif.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><=
/div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></blockquote></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><br><br clear=3Dall><o:p></o:p></=
p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal=
>-- <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Mona Miller<br>Herndon, VA (US=
A) }i{ }i{ }i{<br>Raising Butterflies and Moths for Conservation (+ All Pol=
linators)<br><a href=3D"http://www.facebook.com/groups/butterflyandmothcons=
ervation/" target=3D"_blank">www.facebook.com/groups/butterflyandmothconser=
vation/</a> &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l><span style=3D'color:white'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div>



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