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Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2017 12:56:38 -0700
From: 'Georgia Goldfarb, M.D.' <georgia.goldfarb...> [western_monarchs] <western_monarchs...>
Subject: RE: [western_monarchs] Permanent Marker Destroys Monarch Wings

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I think it=E2=80=99s impossible to determine whether the markers in some wa=
y damaged the insect. In the fruit fly studies, they were looking for some=
specific effect and perhaps it didn=E2=80=99t affect that particular varia=
ble, but I don=E2=80=99t think it can be assumed that it globally has no ef=
fect on other species.

=20

From: <western_monarchs...> [mailto:western_monarchs@yahoogroups=
.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2017 12:28 PM
To: Paul Cherubini <monarch...> [western_monarchs] <western_monarchs@y=
ahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [western_monarchs] Permanent Marker Destroys Monarch Wings

=20

=20=20

Interesting passage on using marker pen inks on fruit flies:=20

=20

"Marker pen ink is inexpensive, clearly identifiable on recapture, and, has=
no relevant effect on=20

the longevity of three species of Drosophilidae (D. simulans, D. malerkotli=
ana, and Z. indianus). Since this material allows marking a higher number o=
f individuals, does not impregnate sense organs throughout the body and is =
more persistent on the insect, we suggest its use for individual-based stud=
ies, long-term studies, and those in which sense organs are determinants fo=
r trustworthy results."

http://www.ou.edu/journals/dis/DIS92/Doge%20123.pdf

Paul's comments are accurate with regard to the extensive use of felt tip m=
arkers by a number of monarch programs over many years.=20

=20

While I did ask some questions, a better question would have been: "What cl=
ear evidence exists that Sharpie markers do harm monarchs in light of their=
extensive use over many years in research projects and other studies?"

Don Davis

Toronto, Ontario, Canada

<http://bestanimations.com/Animals/Insects/Butterflys/animatedbutterfly-7=
.gif>=20

=20

=20

On Wednesday, October 4, 2017, 2:04:42 PM EDT, Paul Cherubini monarch@saber=
.net <mailto:<monarch...> [western_monarchs] <western_monarchs@yahoo=
groups.com <mailto:<western_monarchs...> > wrote:=20

=20

=20

=20=20

=20

https://flic.kr/s/aHsm6jFXsG

These are before and after photos,=20

=20

Those are not before and after photos of the same butterfly

because the top one is a male, bottom one a female.

=20

Monarch Alert and Monarch Program researchers used sharpie=20

permanent markers on overwintering monarchs for years without=20

a wing hole problem that I have seen or heard about. Perhaps just=20

newly emerged monarchs are susceptible to wing damage?

=20

Paul Cherubini

El Dorado, Calif.




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<div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>I think it=E2=80=99s im=
possible to determine whether the markers in some way damaged the insect.=
=C2=A0 In the fruit fly studies, they were looking for some specific effect=
and perhaps it didn=E2=80=99t affect that particular variable, but I don=
=E2=80=99t think it can be assumed that it globally has no effect on other =
species.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padd=
ing:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> western_monarchs@yahoogroups.=
com [mailto:<western_monarchs...>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, O=
ctober 04, 2017 12:28 PM<br><b>To:</b> Paul Cherubini <monarch...> [we=
stern_monarchs] &lt;<western_monarchs...>&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b>=
Re: [western_monarchs] Permanent Marker Destroys Monarch Wings<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D=
MsoNormal>&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p><div id=3Dygrp-mlmsg><div id=3Dygrp-msg><di=
v id=3Dygrp-text><div><div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'fo=
nt-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>Interesting passage on using marker pen i=
nks on fruit flies: <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><=
span style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:15.0pt'>&q=
uot;Marker pen ink is inexpensive, clearly identifiable on recapture, and, =
has no relevant effect on <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNo=
rmal><span style=3D'font-size:15.0pt'>the longevity of three species of Dro=
sophilidae (D. simulans, D. malerkotliana, and Z. indianus). Since this mat=
erial allows marking a higher number of individuals, does not impregnate se=
nse organs throughout the body and is more persistent on the insect, we sug=
gest its use for individual-based studies, long-term studies, and those in =
which sense organs are determinants for trustworthy results.&quot;<o:p></o:=
p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=3Dydpe9db41d1msonormal><span style=
=3D'font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><a href=3D"http://www.ou.edu/journa=
ls/dis/DIS92/Doge%20123.pdf" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ou.edu/journals/d=
is/DIS92/Doge%20123.pdf</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>=
<span style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>Paul's comments are accu=
rate with regard to the extensive use of felt tip markers by a number of mo=
narch programs over many years. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-fam=
ily:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>While I did ask some questions, a better questi=
on would have been: &quot;What clear evidence exists that Sharpie markers d=
o harm monarchs in light of their extensive use over many years in research=
projects and other studies?&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><=
div><div><p class=3Dydpb214d987msonormal><b><span lang=3DEN-CA style=3D'fon=
t-size:24.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#C00000'>Don Davis</=
span></b><span style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b>Toronto, Onta=
rio, Canada<br></b><span style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><br><=
img border=3D0 width=3D433 height=3D52 id=3D"_x0000_i1025" src=3D"http://be=
stanimations.com/Animals/Insects/Butterflys/animatedbutterfly-7.gif" alt=3D=
"butterfly animation"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family=
:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div></div><div id=3D=
"ydp39452d5eyahoo_quoted_7246105412"><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span s=
tyle=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A'>=
On Wednesday, October 4, 2017, 2:04:42 PM EDT, Paul Cherubini <a href=3D"ma=
ilto:<monarch...>"><monarch...></a> [western_monarchs] &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:<western_monarchs...>">western_monarchs@yahoogroups.=
com</a>&gt; wrote: <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><s=
pan style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#262=
82A'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A'><o:=
p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><div id=3Dydp39452d5eyiv6724916739><div=
><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetic=
a",sans-serif;color:#26282A'>&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p><div id=3Dydp3945=
2d5eyiv6724916739ygrp-mlmsg><div id=3Dydp39452d5eyiv6724916739ygrp-msg><div=
id=3Dydp39452d5eyiv6724916739ygrp-text><p><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;=
font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p><div><blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",s=
ans-serif;color:#26282A'><a href=3D"https://flic.kr/s/aHsm6jFXsG" target=3D=
"_blank">https://flic.kr/s/aHsm6jFXsG</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></bloc=
kquote><blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sa=
ns-serif;color:#26282A'>These are before and after photos, <o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p></div></blockquote><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size=
:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A'>Those are not before and after=
photos of the same butterfly<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMs=
oNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;=
color:#26282A'>because the top one is a male, bottom one a female.<o:p></o:=
p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span=
></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-f=
amily:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A'>Monarch Alert and Monarch Progr=
am researchers used sharpie&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-s=
erif;color:#26282A'>permanent markers on overwintering monarchs for years w=
ithout&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span sty=
le=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A'>a =
wing hole problem that I have seen or heard about. Perhaps just&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10=
.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A'>newly emerged monarc=
hs are susceptible to wing damage?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-s=
erif;color:#26282A'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNo=
rmal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;col=
or:#26282A'>Paul Cherubini<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNo=
rmal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;col=
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