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List: Carolina-Leps
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2020 11:41:43 -0400
From: Harry LeGrand (via carolinaleps Mailing List) <carolinaleps...>
Subject: Re: Rare NC butterflies being sold on eBay

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My plea on this matter. If you know the name of this person,* PLEASE give
him name (or his associates also), so that Jeff Pippen can remove him from
the listserve and so that authorities will know whom*
*to target. And , so the some of us will know whom NOT to give butterfly
locations/directions to.*

Jeff Glassberg did few favors in his book when he complained that one or
two unscrupulous collectors took every Mitchell's Satyr from one or more
bogs in NJ -- and he seems to know who it was. But, he NEVER did mention a
name in his books, nor any time in American Butterflies, his butterfly
magazine. Why protect the guilty?

As the author and editor of the Butterflies of North Carolina website, *I
may have to ask Tom Howard to strip off ALL of the Comments sections on ALL
of the butterfly records on the website.* Tom and I will talk about this.

And, at the risk of putting myself in some harm, as Derb has brought up
this disturbing and semi-illegal matter, I will point out a disturbing
incident that may get to some of this. When Jeff Pippen and I were at a
site in Clay County years ago, after having seen the last Gorgone
Checkerspot ever reported in NC, as we headed back to our cars we saw and
spoke with Jeff Slotten, a noted butterfly and moth collector from northern
Florida. He held a large net, and even at 10-11 in the morning, he told us
he was there collecting moths. We mentioned that we were looking for
Gorgone Checkerspot and told them that we didn't see any, and that we were
worried that they had been collected out. He responded quickly "You can't
collect them out'" Yes, all 3 of us lied that morning. But, in the last
10 or more years, no one has ever seen one there. And, he has asked me,
Jeff Pippen, and maybe some others for directions to some species in NC,
especially Two-spotted Skipper. So, one collector who definitely knows a
lot of the whereabouts of NC butterflies is Mr. Slotten.

Jeff Pippen has talked with a lepster from far out of state who mentioned
that Cofaqui Giant-Skipper still exists in NC, and I've heard the same
things from another collector. I've heard that one or two collectors have
dug up yucca plants at a now protected site in Alexander County, taken them
home with a larval tube in them. and rear an adult later, which is then
made into a specimen. Essentially none of us, in many tries, has ever seen
an adult in NC -- which means that there indeed is a collection ring out
there outside the state that knows more about the species than we do here.
I'm 95% sure that Baltimore Checkerspots have been collected out from many
sites in NC. We know that Two-spotted Skipper, Cobweb Skipper, Leonard's
Skipper, Rare Skipper, and some others are declining in NC, and these are
collectors targets -- in addition to ones that Derb mentioned in an earlier
post.

These incidents do not mean that these people are SELLING rare butterfly
species. But it is obvious that these people at least KNOW who this or
these eBay sellers are.

Even if collecting of butterflies in NC is not technically against the law
-- they are not state protected -- there are protections from taking them
from various parks, refuges, etc., that require permits for taking of
plants and animals. I am 99.9% sure that out-of-state butterfly collectors
do not bother with permits. Most collectors take butterfly for their
personal collections, and other collect for a museum. Few of them I feel
sure sell butterflies, and selling them on eBay would certainly tarnish any
reputation as a scrupulous and honorable person.

Jeff Pippen, the listserve owner/manager, will need to attempt to seek out
names of subscribers whom he knows or suspects of being lurkers/collectors
-- and remove them from the listserve. He might have some way to know who
subscribes but has not posted. Such folks could be removed, for example.
We'll see what Jeff Pippen has to say about all of this.

But I think most of us, if not quite all of us, are disgusted by this --
and selling NC butterflies HAS TO STOP! These are rare species in NC.

Harry LeGrand



On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 9:53 AM Sam Davis <sam...> wrote:

> Edit / correction on my earlier email:
>
> Collecting as a scientist is illegal in a NF without a permit, but
> collecting for recreational use is not. Collecting in a National Park is
> illegal regardless without a permit.
>
> But either way, reporting the rare species may get them taken down :)
>
> Sam
>
> On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 9:40 AM Sam Davis <sam...> wrote:
>
>> Hi all -
>>
>> It may be worth going through and reporting items. You'll need an ebay
>> account. Collecting on National Forests, like the West Virginia White
>> specimen, is illegal without explicit permission from the park management.
>>
>> I reported that one because it's my expertise, but I'm unsure on others.
>>
>> Sam
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 9:22 AM Derb Carter <derbc...> wrote:
>>
>>> There is a collector selling hundreds of specimens of rare butterflies
>>> on eBay, some up to $100 each. One of his main collecting sites appears to
>>> be North Carolina. "Brand new" specimens for sale from NC include Dusky
>>> Azure, Hessel's Hairstreak, Edward's Hairstreak, King's Hairstreak, Helicta
>>> Satyr, Georgia Satyr, Little Metalmark, Two-spotted Skipper, Duke's
>>> Skipper, and Green Comma. These species are rare and some imperiled and
>>> monitored by the state Natural Heritage Program. The site is at the link
>>> below.
>>>
>>> I strongly suspect that the collector is a lurker on the Carolinaleps
>>> listserve. Otherwise, it would be nearly impossible to locate these rare
>>> species in NC, and the sighting reports on the listserve provide a
>>> collecting roadmap. Also, most of these rare species are very local and
>>> the known sites are in protected areas where collecting is prohibited or
>>> permits required. The Lepidopterists' Society statement on ethical
>>> collection of butterflies states collectors should consult with local
>>> experts before collecting rare or local species and obey all laws and
>>> restrictions. And collecting for science is one thing, but to sell on eBay
>>> is another.
>>>
>>> This makes me leery about reporting locations on future sightings of
>>> rare or imperiled species. As I strongly suspect the collector is reading
>>> this, as a North Carolinian concerned about our natural diversity, I ask
>>> you to take your business elsewhere.
>>>
>>>
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?item=254505588802&_ssn=iau111&_pgn=15&_skc=700&rt=nc__;!!OToaGQ!-zJb9nRH9vuWvSMnGAl5Q2GgTwEyWOiLqxtT_EZukVVg2fZwcKY37Mxn2Q06rHgX3vY$
>>>
>>> Derb Carter
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Sam L. Davis, Ph.D.
>> Conservation Scientist
>> Dogwood Alliance
>> they/them/theirs
>> (828) 251-2525 ext. 19 (office)
>> (828) 380-2482 (cell)
>> ----
>>
>>
>
> --
> Sam L. Davis, Ph.D.
> Conservation Scientist
> Dogwood Alliance
> they/them/theirs
> (828) 251-2525 ext. 19 (office)
> (828) 380-2482 (cell)
> ----
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>My plea on this matter.=C2=A0 If you know the name of=
this person,<b> PLEASE give him name (or his associates also), so that Jef=
f Pippen can remove him from the listserve and so that authorities will kno=
w whom</b> <b>to target.=C2=A0 And , so the some of us will know whom NOT t=
o give butterfly locations/directions to.<br></b></div><div><br></div><div>=
Jeff Glassberg did few favors in his book when he complained that one or tw=
o unscrupulous collectors took every Mitchell&#39;s Satyr from one or more =
bogs in NJ -- and he seems to know who it was.=C2=A0 But, he NEVER did ment=
ion a name in his books, nor any time in American Butterflies, his butterfl=
y magazine. Why protect the guilty?<br></div><div><br></div><div>As the aut=
hor and editor of the Butterflies of North Carolina website, <b>I may have =
to ask Tom Howard to strip off ALL of the Comments sections on ALL of the b=
utterfly records on the website.</b>=C2=A0=C2=A0 Tom and I will talk about =
this.<br></div><div><br></div><div>And, at the risk of putting myself in so=
me harm, as Derb has brought up this disturbing and semi-illegal matter, I =
will point out a disturbing incident that may get to some of this.=C2=A0 Wh=
en Jeff Pippen and I were at a site in Clay County years ago, after having =
seen the last Gorgone Checkerspot ever reported in NC, as we headed back to=
our cars we saw and spoke with Jeff Slotten, a noted butterfly and moth co=
llector from northern Florida.=C2=A0 He held a large net, and even at 10-11=
in the morning, he told us he was there collecting moths.=C2=A0 We mention=
ed that we were looking for Gorgone Checkerspot and told them that we didn&=
#39;t see any, and that we were worried that they had been collected out.=
=C2=A0 He responded quickly &quot;You can&#39;t collect them out&#39;&quot;=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 Yes, all 3 of us lied that morning.=C2=A0 But, in the last 10 =
or more years, no one has ever seen one there.=C2=A0 And, he has asked me, =
Jeff Pippen, and maybe some others for directions to some species in NC, es=
pecially Two-spotted Skipper.=C2=A0 So, one collector who definitely knows =
a lot of the whereabouts of NC butterflies is Mr. Slotten.<br></div><div><b=
r></div><div>Jeff Pippen has talked with a lepster from far out of state wh=
o mentioned that Cofaqui Giant-Skipper still exists in NC, and I&#39;ve hea=
rd the same things from another collector.=C2=A0 I&#39;ve heard that one or=
two collectors have dug up yucca plants at a now protected site in Alexand=
er County, taken them home with a larval tube in them. and rear an adult la=
ter, which is then made into a specimen.=C2=A0 Essentially none of us, in m=
any tries, has ever seen an adult in NC -- which means that there indeed is=
a collection ring out there outside the state that knows more about the sp=
ecies than we do here.=C2=A0 I&#39;m 95% sure that Baltimore Checkerspots h=
ave been collected out from many sites in NC.=C2=A0 We know that Two-spotte=
d Skipper, Cobweb Skipper, Leonard&#39;s Skipper, Rare Skipper, and some ot=
hers are declining in NC, and these are collectors targets -- in addition t=
o ones that Derb mentioned in an earlier post.<br></div><div><br></div><div=
>These incidents do not mean that these people are SELLING rare butterfly s=
pecies.=C2=A0 But it is obvious that these people at least KNOW who this or=
these eBay sellers are.</div><div><br></div><div>
<div>Even if collecting of butterflies in NC is not technically against the=
law -- they are not state protected -- there are protections from taking t=
hem from various parks, refuges, etc., that require permits for taking of p=
lants and animals.=C2=A0 I am 99.9% sure that out-of-state butterfly collec=
tors do not bother with permits.=C2=A0 Most collectors take butterfly for t=
heir personal collections, and other collect for a museum.=C2=A0 Few of the=
m I feel sure sell butterflies, and selling them on eBay would certainly ta=
rnish any reputation as a scrupulous and honorable person.<br></div><div><b=
r></div>

</div><div>Jeff Pippen, the listserve owner/manager, will need to attempt t=
o seek out names of subscribers whom he knows or suspects of being lurkers/=
collectors -- and remove them from the listserve.=C2=A0 He might have some =
way to know who subscribes but has not posted.=C2=A0 Such folks could be re=
moved, for example.=C2=A0 We&#39;ll see what Jeff Pippen has to say about a=
ll of this.=C2=A0=C2=A0 <br></div><div><br></div><div>But I think most of u=
s, if not quite all of us, are disgusted by this -- and selling NC butterfl=
ies HAS TO STOP!=C2=A0 These are rare species in NC.<br></div><div><br></di=
v><div>Harry LeGrand<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Jun 24,=
2020 at 9:53 AM Sam Davis &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:<sam...>">s=
<am...></a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,2=
04);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Edit=C2=A0/ correction on my earlier=
email:=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>Collecting as a scientist is illegal in a =
NF without a permit, but collecting for recreational use is not. Collecting=
in a National Park is illegal regardless without a permit.</div><div><br><=
/div><div>But either way, reporting the rare species may get them taken dow=
n :)</div><div><br></div><div>Sam</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"=
><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 9:40 AM Sam =
Davis &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:<sam...>" target=3D"_blank">sam@=
dogwoodalliance.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204)=
;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi all -=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>It ma=
y be worth going through and reporting items. You&#39;ll need an ebay accou=
nt. Collecting on National Forests, like the West Virginia White specimen, =
is illegal without explicit permission from the park management.</div><div>=
<br></div><div>I reported that one because it&#39;s my expertise, but I&#39=
;m unsure on others.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Sam</div></div><br><div=
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Jun 24=
, 2020 at 9:22 AM Derb Carter &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:<derbc...>" targe=
t=3D"_blank"><derbc...></a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(20=
4,204,204);padding-left:1ex">There is a collector selling hundreds of speci=
mens of rare butterflies on eBay, some up to $100 each.=C2=A0 One of his ma=
in collecting sites appears to be North Carolina.=C2=A0 &quot;Brand new&quo=
t; specimens for sale from NC include Dusky Azure, Hessel&#39;s Hairstreak,=
Edward&#39;s Hairstreak, King&#39;s Hairstreak, Helicta Satyr, Georgia Sat=
yr, Little Metalmark, Two-spotted Skipper, Duke&#39;s Skipper, and Green Co=
mma.=C2=A0 These species are rare and some imperiled and monitored by the s=
tate Natural Heritage Program.=C2=A0 The site is at the link below.<br>
<br>
I strongly suspect that the collector is a lurker on the Carolinaleps lists=
erve.=C2=A0 Otherwise, it would be nearly impossible to locate these rare s=
pecies in NC, and the sighting reports on the listserve provide a collectin=
g roadmap.=C2=A0 Also, most of these rare species are very local and the kn=
own sites are in protected areas where collecting is prohibited or permits =
required.=C2=A0 The Lepidopterists&#39; Society statement on ethical collec=
tion of butterflies states collectors should consult with local experts bef=
ore collecting rare or local species and obey all laws and restrictions.=C2=
=A0 And collecting for science is one thing, but to sell on eBay is another=
.<br>
<br>
This makes me leery about reporting locations on future sightings of rare o=
r imperiled species.=C2=A0 As I strongly suspect the collector is reading t=
his, as a North Carolinian concerned about our natural diversity, I ask you=
to take your business elsewhere.<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?item=
=3D254505588802&amp;_ssn=3Diau111&amp;_pgn=3D15&amp;_skc=3D700&amp;rt=3Dnc_=
_;!!OToaGQ!-zJb9nRH9vuWvSMnGAl5Q2GgTwEyWOiLqxtT_EZukVVg2fZwcKY37Mxn2Q06rHgX=
3vY$" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://urldefense.com/v3/__http=
s://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?item=3D254505588802&amp;_ssn=3Diau111&amp;_pgn=
=3D15&amp;_skc=3D700&amp;rt=3Dnc__;!!OToaGQ!-zJb9nRH9vuWvSMnGAl5Q2GgTwEyWOi=
LqxtT_EZukVVg2fZwcKY37Mxn2Q06rHgX3vY$</a> <br>
<br>
Derb Carter<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px=
"><div>Sam L. Davis, Ph.D.</div><div>Conservation Scientist</div><div>Dogwo=
od Alliance</div><div>they/them/theirs</div><div>(828) 251-2525 ext. 19 (of=
fice)</div><div>(828) 380-2482 (cell)</div><div>----</div><div dir=3D"ltr">=
<span></span><span></span><img src=3D"https://docs.google.com/uc?export=3Dd=
ownload&amp;id=3D1MVSkORdcsar_MlDZvj4jFZAGc8qKAG6w&amp;revid=3D0B5OCz4eGny7=
5aXJIdWxTQnI1MHAwQjNrNEt1bUZpUDdBdm53PQ" width=3D"200" height=3D"119"><br><=
/div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px=
"><div>Sam L. Davis, Ph.D.</div><div>Conservation Scientist</div><div>Dogwo=
od Alliance</div><div>they/them/theirs</div><div>(828) 251-2525 ext. 19 (of=
fice)</div><div>(828) 380-2482 (cell)</div><div>----</div><div dir=3D"ltr">=
<span></span><span></span><img src=3D"https://docs.google.com/uc?export=3Dd=
ownload&amp;id=3D1MVSkORdcsar_MlDZvj4jFZAGc8qKAG6w&amp;revid=3D0B5OCz4eGny7=
5aXJIdWxTQnI1MHAwQjNrNEt1bUZpUDdBdm53PQ" width=3D"200" height=3D"119"><br><=
/div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div>

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