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List: Carolina-Leps
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2020 11:33:08 -0400
From: Loretta Lutman <butterflies_bg...>
Subject: Re: carolinaleps Digest Wed, 23 Sep 2020


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In reference to inquiries about toxicity in different Asclepias. =
Source: The Butterflies of North America, A Natural History and Field =
Guide, by James A. Scott.

After birds ate poisonous Monarch they vomited, and then refused both =
Monarchs and Viceroys, an association that protects the edible Viceroy =
from attack. Some Asclepias host plants have cardiac glycosides (heart =
poisons ) in large amounts, where others do not. They found that =
female Monarchs have more glycosides than do males, more northeastern =
U.S. adults are poisonous than southern U.S. and CA. adults. =20

The wings and abdomen store more poison than the rest of the body. A =
Monarch is poisonous only if its larva ate a poisonous plant. Despite =
this protection, birds do eat some Monarchs. Both palatable and =
unpalatable butterflies are at CA. overwintering sites, and millions =
are eaten in Mexican overwintering sites by Black-Headed Grosbeaks that =
eat the whole butterfly and are immune to the poison (Monarchs are their =
main food) and by orioles and jays that have learned to discard the =
wings and eat only the thoracic muscles and abdominal contents (warblers =
and chickadees refuse all Monarchs). Overwintering Monarchs become less =
poisonous with time, which increases predation upon upon them.

They found that the larvae of most overwintering Mexican Monarchs had =
fed on A. syriaca and A tuberosa, and because these plants produce =
relatively nonpoisonous adults, they suggested that historical increases =
in the abundance of both plants in E. N America have increased predation =
, even in Mexico. The Mexican butterflies were found to be safer in =
large colonies than in small ones; a greater percentage of small ones =
suffered predation because birds concentrated on the edges of each =
colony. In general, although birds do eat many Monarchs, many more are =
protected by some being poisonous. =20

Credits to J. Brower, L. Brower, M. Rothschild, B. Petersen, W. Calvert, =
L. Fink, and others not specifically named.=20

So as not to dominate today=E2=80=99s submissions, I will send a list of =
milkweeds and their toxicity tomorrow.=20

Loretta Lutman


> On Sep 23, 2020, at 6:01 AM, <carolinaleps-request...> wrote:
>=20
> carolinaleps Digest Wed, 23 Sep 2020
>=20
>=20
> From: <mchummel...> <mailto:<mchummel...>>
> Subject: Re: Monarch Caterpillars and Milkweed Species
> Date: September 22, 2020 at 9:55:27 AM EDT
> To: Dennis Burnette <deburnette...> =
<mailto:<deburnette...>>, Carolinaleps <carolinaleps...> =
<mailto:<carolinaleps...>>
> Reply-To: <mchummel...> <mailto:<mchummel...>
>=20
> Hi Dennis,
> I don't have specific chemical information.
> My experience comes from watching the actions of the caterpillars. =
While they do prefer to eat what they are accustomed to eating, they =
will move or starve. But they need to make that determination. My =
success happens when I place the eaten food with the fresh food and let =
them make the choice themselves. Placing the Black Swallowtail that has =
eaten parsley on the dill means they will have a higher chance of =
starving than making that choice. But when I put the eaten parsley stems =
with the fresh dill, most of them choose to live and eat the new food.
>=20
> So I would suggest the same for milkweed. Some of the milkweed is not =
apparently edible. I have a blue flowering milkweed with fuzzy leaves - =
never been nibbled and I tried it. I have switched from common to =
butterfly weed by making the offer. As long as it is a plant used by the =
females as food for their caterpillars, it should work for most =
caterpillars.
> Cyndy
> -----Original Message-----=20
> From: Dennis Burnette=20
> Sent: Sep 19, 2020 5:07 PM=20
> To: Carolinaleps=20
> Subject: Monarch Caterpillars and Milkweed Species=20
> All,
> I=E2=80=99m writing because a question has come up with different =
friends three times this month about moving a Monarch caterpillar from =
its original species of milkweed where it hatched to a different =
species. The questions arose because the leaves had been stripped from =
the original milkweed.=20
>=20
> I vaguely recall a discussion years ago in the Carolina Butterfly =
Society about some species of milkweed having a higher level of the =
cardiac glycoside then others that makes them noxious or toxic. The gist =
of the discussion, if I am remembering correctly, was that moving cats =
from a milkweed species with a higher level to one with a lower level =
was okay, but not the other way around. I don=E2=80=99t remember if the =
belief was that the cats just would n=E2=80=99t eat it or if it was =
lethal. I also don=E2=80=99t remember which species of milkweed was said =
to have higher or lower levels.
> Can anyone in this group shed some light on those questions?
> Thanks,
> Dennis Burnette
> Greensboro, NC
> Guilford County
> <deburnette...> <mailto:<deburnette...>
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">In reference to inquiries about toxicity in =
different Asclepias. &nbsp;Source: The Butterflies of North America, A =
Natural History and Field Guide, by James A. Scott.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">After birds ate =
poisonous Monarch they vomited, and then refused both Monarchs and =
Viceroys, an association that protects the edible Viceroy from attack. =
&nbsp;Some Asclepias host plants have cardiac glycosides (heart poisons =
) in large amounts, where others do not. &nbsp; They found that female =
Monarchs have more glycosides than do males, more northeastern U.S. =
adults are poisonous than southern U.S. and CA. adults. &nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The wings and abdomen =
store more poison than the rest of the body. &nbsp;A Monarch is =
poisonous only if its larva ate a poisonous plant. &nbsp;Despite this =
protection, birds do eat some Monarchs. &nbsp;Both palatable and =
unpalatable butterflies are &nbsp;at CA. overwintering sites, and =
millions are eaten in Mexican overwintering sites by Black-Headed =
Grosbeaks that eat the whole butterfly and are immune to the poison =
(Monarchs are their main food) and by orioles and jays that have learned =
to discard the wings and eat only the thoracic muscles and abdominal =
contents (warblers and chickadees refuse all Monarchs). =
&nbsp;Overwintering Monarchs become less poisonous with time, which =
increases predation upon upon them.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; They found that the larvae of =
most overwintering Mexican Monarchs had fed on A. syriaca and A =
tuberosa, and because these plants produce relatively nonpoisonous =
adults, they suggested that historical increases in the abundance of =
both plants in E. N America have increased predation , even in Mexico. =
&nbsp;The Mexican butterflies were found to be safer in large colonies =
than in small ones; a greater percentage of small ones suffered =
predation because birds concentrated on the edges of each colony. =
&nbsp;In general, although birds do eat many Monarchs, many more are =
protected by some being poisonous. &nbsp;</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Credits to J. Brower, L. Brower, M. Rothschild, B. =
Petersen, W. Calvert, L. Fink, and others not specifically =
named.&nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>So as not to dominate =
today=E2=80=99s submissions, I will send a list of milkweeds and their =
toxicity tomorrow.&nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Loretta =
Lutman</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Sep 23, 2020, at 6:01 AM, <a =
href=3D"mailto:<carolinaleps-request...>" =
class=3D""><carolinaleps-request...></a> wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: TimesNewRomanPSMT; font-size: 18px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">carolinaleps Digest Wed, 23 Sep =
2020</span><br style=3D"font-family: TimesNewRomanPSMT; font-size: 18px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0px; =
font-family: TimesNewRomanPSMT; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(127, 127, 127);" class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b></span><span =
style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:<mchummel...>" =
style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><mchummel...></a>&gt;<br class=3D""></span></div><div=
style=3D"margin: 0px; font-family: TimesNewRomanPSMT; font-size: 18px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, 'Helvetica =
Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif; color: rgb(127, 127, 127);" class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b></span><span =
style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Re: Monarch Caterpillars and =
Milkweed Species</b><br class=3D""></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0px; font-family: TimesNewRomanPSMT; font-size: 18px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span=
style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(127, 127, 127);" class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b></span><span =
style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">September 22, 2020 at 9:55:27 AM EDT<br =
class=3D""></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-family: =
TimesNewRomanPSMT; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(127, 127, 127);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b></span><span =
style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Dennis Burnette &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:<deburnette...>" style=3D"color: blue; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><deburnette...></a>&gt;, =
Carolinaleps &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:<carolinaleps...>" style=3D"color: =
blue; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><carolinaleps...></a>&gt;<br class=3D""></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0px; font-family: TimesNewRomanPSMT; font-size: 18px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, 'Helvetica =
Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif; color: rgb(127, 127, 127);" class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Reply-To:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b></span><span =
style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:<mchummel...>" =
style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><mchummel...></a><br class=3D""></span></div><br =
style=3D"font-family: TimesNewRomanPSMT; font-size: 18px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span=
style=3D"font-size: 16px; font-family: Arial;" class=3D"">Hi =
Dennis,</span><br class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-family: =
Arial;" class=3D""><div style=3D"font-size: 16px; margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D"">I don't have specific chemical =
information.</div><div style=3D"font-size: 16px; margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D"">My experience comes from watching the =
actions of the caterpillars. While they do prefer to eat what they are =
accustomed to eating, they will move or starve. But they need to make =
that determination. My success happens when I place the eaten food with =
the fresh food and let them make the choice themselves. Placing the =
Black Swallowtail that has eaten parsley on the dill means they will =
have a higher chance of starving than making that choice. But when I put =
the eaten parsley stems with the fresh dill, most of them choose to live =
and eat the new food.</div><div style=3D"font-size: 16px; margin-top: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
style=3D"font-size: 16px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" =
class=3D"">So I would suggest the same for milkweed. Some of the =
milkweed is not apparently edible. I have a blue flowering milkweed with =
fuzzy leaves - never been nibbled and I tried it. I have switched from =
common to butterfly weed by making the offer. As long as it is a plant =
used by the females as food for their caterpillars, it should work for =
most caterpillars.</div><div style=3D"font-size: 16px; margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D"">Cyndy</div><blockquote =
style=3D"padding-left: 5px; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-style: =
normal; font-weight: normal; text-decoration: none; margin-left: 0px; =
border-left-color: rgb(0, 0, 255); border-left-width: 2px; =
border-left-style: solid;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 15px;" =
class=3D"">-----Original Message-----<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">From: Dennis =
Burnette<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><deburnette...>=
om class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 15px;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Sent: Sep 19, 2020 5:07 PM<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">To: =
Carolinaleps<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><carolinaleps...>=
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 15px;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Subject: Monarch Caterpillars and Milkweed Species<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 15px;" class=3D"">All,</span><span style=3D"font-size:=
15px;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><div style=3D"margin: 0px;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 15px;" class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m =
writing because a question has come up with different friends three =
times this month about moving a Monarch caterpillar from its original =
species of milkweed where it hatched to a different species. The =
questions arose because the leaves had been stripped from the original =
milkweed.&nbsp;</span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 15px;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 15px;" =
class=3D"">I vaguely recall a discussion years ago in the Carolina =
Butterfly Society about some species of milkweed having a higher level =
of the cardiac glycoside then others that makes them noxious or toxic. =
The gist of the discussion, if I am remembering correctly, was that =
moving cats from a milkweed species with a higher level to one with a =
lower level was okay, but not the other way around. I don=E2=80=99t =
remember if the belief was that the cats just would n=E2=80=99t eat it =
or if it was lethal. I also don=E2=80=99t remember which species of =
milkweed was said to have higher or lower levels.</span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 15px;" =
class=3D"">Can anyone in this group shed some light on those =
questions?</span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 15px;" class=3D"">T</span><font size=3D"2" =
class=3D"">hanks,</font></div><div style=3D"font-size: 10pt; margin: =
0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;" class=3D"">Dennis =
Burnette</span></div><div style=3D"font-size: 10pt; margin: 0px;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0px;" class=3D"">Greensboro, =
NC</div><div style=3D"margin: 0px;" class=3D"">Guilford County</div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0px;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:<deburnette...>" style=3D"color: blue; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><deburnette...></a></div></div><div style=3D"font-size:=
10pt; margin: 0px;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; margin: 0px;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></<carolinaleps...></<deburnette...></block=
quote></div><br style=3D"font-family: TimesNewRomanPSMT; font-size: =
18px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: TimesNewRomanPSMT; font-size: 18px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></body></html>=

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