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List: Carolina-Leps
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 14:01:00 -0400
From: Harry LeGrand (via carolinaleps Mailing List) <carolinaleps...>
Subject: Re: Pine Elfin question

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Spending lots of time in the pine canopy would indeed make sense for any
species with such widespread host plants but are infrequently seen.

As for pines, I have never associated Pine Elfins with Longleaf Pines -- I
seldom if ever see the butterfly in places where this pine is dominant. As
for Loblolly, who knows unless one sees a female ovipositing -- this pine
is everywhere -- literally the most abundant tree in the eastern 2/3rds of
the Carolinas, so hard to rule out! By that I mean -- if you find a Pine
Elfin, and then look around, you will probably see one to lots of Loblolly
Pines. Certainly, a pine such as Shortleaf -- nearly across the Carolinas
but scarce in the lower Coastal Plain -- makes geographical sense for a
hostplant, and Virginia Pine might also.

Harry LeGrand

On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 1:23 PM <smitcb777...> wrote:

> I have definitely seen Pine Elfins spending time in the canopies of
> trees. I watched half a dozen or more one day acting just as Juniper
> Hairstreaks would, except much higher on the upper 1/3 of a group of tall
> pines. They were perched on the ends of branches, patrolling and
> dog-fighting around these few trees the whole time I watched, over an
> hour. None came any farther down the tree from the upper 1/3, despite wet
> sand and nectar available in the immediate area of the same power line
> cut. This was in northern VA, south of Washington, DC (upper coastal
> plain, although much different looking than the Carolinas).
>
> In my experience Pine Elfins are rarer in the lower coastal plain,
> becoming more common in the upper coastal plain, and not uncommon in the
> piedmont and mountains, at least in the right habitat at the right time of
> year. My guess is that they do not naturally host on Loblolly or Longleaf
> Pines.
>
> Tom Smith
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dennis Forsythe <carolinaleps...>
> To: Harry LeGrand <hlegrandjr...>
> Cc: ROBERT CAVANAUGH <papilio28570...>; Carolinaleps <
> <carolinaleps...>
> Sent: Fri, Mar 26, 2021 12:55 pm
> Subject: Re: Pine Elfin question
>
> I saw my 1st Pine Elfin in I'On Swamp. Charleston Co. in 2000 and I did
> not see another until 8 years later.
>
>
> Dennis
>
> On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 12:42 PM Harry LeGrand <carolinaleps...>
> wrote:
>
> Bob -- Don' t even begin to think you are the first person to wonder why
> this species is so scarce in its overall range, and not just in NC!! I am
> quite sure that various pines indeed are hostplants, as is well discussed.
> And, as the species has been recorded nearly statewide, it isn't limited to
> just Virginia Pine (scarce in the Coastal Plain), etc. White-M Hairstreak
> host plants are oaks, and they can be quite difficult to locate in a given
> year, as well. Oaks are everywhere too.
>
> I have not heard anyone say that E. Pine Elfins spend tons of time in the
> canopy of pine trees; if they did, that would explain why so few are
> actually seen. We DO know that both Juniper and Hessel's hairstreaks spend
> most of the day well up in the 2 cedar species; we can see them fly up to
> higher branches when disturbed from a flower, and people with long nets can
> beat on branches well up and at times flush one. Early Hairstreaks
> seemingly spend most of the day well up or in hardwood trees, rarely coming
> to the ground or a low flower. So -- I wouldn't rule out that Pine Elfins
> spend much time well up in pine trees, but I don't know if this has been
> reported.
>
> Yes, most of us are lucky to see one in a given year, and you almost need
> to be out every day or several times a week in the spring season to stumble
> onto one, as there is absolutely no way to target where and when to find
> one! My best advice is to walk along the margins of pine or mixed woods or
> pine thickets and look for some flowering shrubs like plums. I've seen a
> few on dirt roads, some in powerline clearings on various flowers, etc.
>
> Good luck, and don't look for pines to make your search.
>
> Harry LeGrand
>
> On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 11:52 AM ROBERT CAVANAUGH <carolinaleps...>
> wrote:
>
> Every several years I will see a Pine Elfin here in Carteret but
> considering that pine is the most abundant tree on coastal Carolina, why
> are these butterflies so rare? It makes me wonder if pine is really the
> preferred host. Loblolly pine is the dominant species here.
>
> Over the years of reading this list service I don't recall many sightings
> mentioned.
>
> Thoughts from others.... ?
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://go.onelink.me/107872968?pid=InProduct&c=Global_Internal_YGrowth_AndroidEmailSig__AndroidUsers&af_wl=ym&af_sub1=Internal&af_sub2=Global_YGrowth&af_sub3=EmailSignature__;!!OToaGQ!8Lnuo6rmm4cim-Rx7GIgopx82GZcye9gp8Z-aO56sn1ZY1bKiAQB0H770y9%0D%20RIKKtVY8$>
>
>
>
> --
> Dennis M. Forsythe PhD
> South Carolina Christmas Bird Count Editor
> South Carolina eButterfly reviewer
> Emeritus Professor of Biology
> The Citadel
> 171 Moultrie St,
> Charleston, SC 29409
> 843.795.3996-home
> 843.953.7264-fax
> 843.708.1605-cell
> <dennis.forsythe...>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Spending lots of time in the pine canopy would indeed=
make sense for any species with such widespread host plants but are infreq=
uently seen.</div><div><br></div><div>As for pines, I have never associated=
Pine Elfins with Longleaf Pines=C2=A0 -- I seldom if ever see the butterfl=
y in places where this pine is dominant.=C2=A0 As for Loblolly, who knows u=
nless one sees a female ovipositing -- this pine is everywhere -- literally=
the most abundant tree in the eastern 2/3rds of the Carolinas, so hard to =
rule out!=C2=A0 By that I mean -- if you find a Pine Elfin, and then look a=
round, you will probably see one to lots of Loblolly Pines.=C2=A0 Certainly=
, a pine such as Shortleaf -- nearly across the Carolinas but scarce in the=
lower Coastal Plain -- makes geographical sense for a hostplant, and Virgi=
nia Pine might also.=C2=A0 <br></div><div><br></div><div>Harry LeGrand<br><=
/div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_a=
ttr">On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 1:23 PM &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:<smitcb777...>=
m"><smitcb777...></a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204=
);padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"color:black;font:10pt arial">I have definitely seen Pine Elfi=
ns spending time in the canopies of trees.=C2=A0 I watched half a dozen or =
more one day acting just as Juniper Hairstreaks would, except much higher o=
n the upper 1/3 of a group of tall pines.=C2=A0 They were perched on the en=
ds of branches, patrolling and dog-fighting around these few trees the whol=
e time I watched, over an hour.=C2=A0 None came any farther down the tree f=
rom the upper 1/3, despite wet sand and nectar available in the immediate a=
rea of the same power line cut.=C2=A0 This was in northern VA, south of Was=
hington, DC (upper coastal plain, although much different looking than the =
Carolinas).=C2=A0
<div><br>
</div>

<div>In my experience Pine Elfins are rarer in the lower coastal plain, bec=
oming more common in the upper coastal plain, and not uncommon in the piedm=
ont and mountains, at least in the right habitat at the right time of year.=
My guess is that they do not naturally host on Loblolly or Longleaf Pines.=
=C2=A0</div>

<div><br>
</div>

<div>Tom Smith<br>
<br>
<br>

<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black"><font=
size=3D"2">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Dennis Forsythe &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:<carolinaleps...>" target=
=3D"_blank"><carolinaleps...></a>&gt;<br>
To: Harry LeGrand &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:<hlegrandjr...>" target=3D"_bl=
ank"><hlegrandjr...></a>&gt;<br>
Cc: ROBERT CAVANAUGH &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:<papilio28570...>" target=
=3D"_blank"><papilio28570...></a>&gt;; Carolinaleps &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:<carolinaleps...>" target=3D"_blank"><carolinaleps...></a>&gt;<=
br>
Sent: Fri, Mar 26, 2021 12:55 pm<br>
Subject: Re: Pine Elfin question<br>
<br>

<div id=3D"gmail-m_644821387915148604yiv3845782282">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">I saw my 1st Pine Elfin in I&#39;On Swamp. Charleston Co. =
in 2000 and I did not see another until 8 years later.
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>

<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>

<div>Dennis</div>
</div>
<br clear=3D"none">
<div id=3D"gmail-m_644821387915148604yiv3845782282yqt86586">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 12:42 PM Harry LeGrand &lt;<a rel=
=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"mailto:carolinalep=
<s...>" target=3D"_blank"><carolinaleps...></a>&gt; wrote:<br clear=
=3D"none"></div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>Bob -- Don&#39; t even begin to think you are the first person to wond=
er why this species is so scarce in its overall range, and not just in NC!!=
=C2=A0 I am quite sure that various pines indeed are hostplants, as is well=
discussed.=C2=A0 And, as the species has been recorded nearly statewide, i=
t isn&#39;t limited to just Virginia Pine (scarce in the Coastal Plain), et=
c.=C2=A0 White-M Hairstreak host plants are oaks, and they can be quite dif=
ficult to locate in a given year, as well.=C2=A0 Oaks are everywhere too.</=
div>

<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>

<div>I have not heard anyone say that E. Pine Elfins spend tons of time in =
the canopy of pine trees; if they did, that would explain why so few are ac=
tually seen.=C2=A0 We DO know that both Juniper and Hessel&#39;s hairstreak=
s spend most of the day well up in the 2 cedar species; we can see them fly=
up to higher branches when disturbed from a flower, and people with long n=
ets can beat on branches well up and at times flush one.=C2=A0 Early Hairst=
reaks seemingly spend most of the day well up or in hardwood trees, rarely =
coming to the ground or a low flower.=C2=A0=C2=A0 So -- I wouldn&#39;t rule=
out that Pine Elfins spend much time well up in pine trees, but I don&#39;=
t know if this has been reported.<br clear=3D"none"></div>

<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>

<div>Yes, most of us are lucky to see one in a given year, and you almost n=
eed to be out every day or several times a week in the spring season to stu=
mble onto one, as there is absolutely no way to target where and when to fi=
nd one!=C2=A0 My best advice is to walk along the margins of pine or mixed =
woods or pine thickets and look for some flowering shrubs like plums.=C2=A0=
I&#39;ve seen a few on dirt roads, some in powerline clearings on various =
flowers, etc.=C2=A0 <br clear=3D"none"></div>

<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>

<div>Good luck, and don&#39;t look for pines to make your search.<br clear=
=3D"none"></div>

<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>

<div>Harry LeGrand<br clear=3D"none"> </div>
</div>
<br clear=3D"none">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 11:52 AM ROBERT CAVANAUGH &lt;<a r=
el=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"mailto:carolinal=
<eps...>" target=3D"_blank"><carolinaleps...></a>&gt; wrote:<br cle=
ar=3D"none"></div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Every several years I will see a Pine Elfin her=
e in Carteret but considering that pine is the most abundant tree on coasta=
l Carolina, why are these butterflies so rare?=C2=A0 It makes me wonder if =
pine is really the preferred host.=C2=A0 Loblolly pine is the dominant spec=
ies here.
<div id=3D"gmail-m_644821387915148604yiv3845782282gmail-m_-1369231671502894=
183gmail-m_-8806943530809140039yMail_cursorElementTracker_1616773807634"><b=
r clear=3D"none"></div>

<div id=3D"gmail-m_644821387915148604yiv3845782282gmail-m_-1369231671502894=
183gmail-m_-8806943530809140039yMail_cursorElementTracker_1616773808084">Ov=
er the years of reading this list service I don&#39;t recall many sightings=
mentioned.</div>

<div id=3D"gmail-m_644821387915148604yiv3845782282gmail-m_-1369231671502894=
183gmail-m_-8806943530809140039yMail_cursorElementTracker_1616773892927"><b=
r clear=3D"none"></div>

<div id=3D"gmail-m_644821387915148604yiv3845782282gmail-m_-1369231671502894=
183gmail-m_-8806943530809140039yMail_cursorElementTracker_1616773893218">Th=
oughts from others.... ?<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">
<div id=3D"gmail-m_644821387915148604yiv3845782282gmail-m_-1369231671502894=
183gmail-m_-8806943530809140039ymail_android_signature"><a rel=3D"nofollow =
noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" id=3D"gmail-m_644821387915148604yiv3845=
782282gmail-m_-1369231671502894183gmail-m_-8806943530809140039ymail_android=
_signature_link" href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://go.onelink.me/=
107872968?pid=3DInProduct&amp;c=3DGlobal_Internal_YGrowth_AndroidEmailSig__=
AndroidUsers&amp;af_wl=3Dym&amp;af_sub1=3DInternal&amp;af_sub2=3DGlobal_YGr=
owth&amp;af_sub3=3DEmailSignature__;!!OToaGQ!8Lnuo6rmm4cim-Rx7GIgopx82GZcye=
9gp8Z-aO56sn1ZY1bKiAQB0H770y9%0D%20RIKKtVY8$" target=3D"_blank">Sent from Y=
ahoo Mail on Android</a></div>
</div>
</blockquote></div>

</blockquote></div>
</div>
<br clear=3D"all">
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
-- <br clear=3D"none">
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<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Dennis M. Forsythe PhD
<div>South Carolina Christmas Bird Count Editor</div>

<div>South Carolina eButterfly reviewer</div>

<div>Emeritus Professor of Biology</div>

<div>The Citadel</div>

<div>
<div>
<div>171 Moultrie St,<br clear=3D"none">Charleston, SC 29409<br clear=3D"no=
ne">843.795.3996-home<br clear=3D"none">843.953.7264-fax<br clear=3D"none">=
843.708.1605-cell<br clear=3D"none"><a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer"=
shape=3D"rect" href=3D"mailto:<dennis.forsythe...>" target=3D"_blank"=
><dennis.forsythe...></a></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</div>
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