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List: Carolina-Leps
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2024 16:32:18 -0400
From: Jeff Pippen (via carolinaleps Mailing List) <carolinaleps...>
Subject: Re: Helicata Satyr


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Hi Harry & All,

Harry, thank you for the post!=20=20

All, Helicta Satyr is a tough insect to find in NC, and as Harry said, it=
=E2=80=99s a great one to be on the lookout for and to get photos for verif=
ication if possible.

Here=E2=80=99s a webpage with photos and extra information to help identify=
both Georgia and Helicta Satyrs

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.jeffpippen.com/butterflies/georgias=
atyr.htm__;!!OToaGQ!tQ6ypyS6-kSVs0VA6Tum7FITRhuaV_vSUDckw9iHhAcBYyAGgOkeLCI=
m4pIW4amlgg1Djad-0V999Dj1gXHWGco$=20

There have been VERY few reports in the last 15+ years. The most recent re=
ports are from counties along or near the =E2=80=9CFall Line=E2=80=9D (betw=
een the Piedmont and Coastal Plain provinces).

Cheers,
Jeff
--
Jeffrey S. Pippen
Mebane, NC=20
Director, Carolinas Butterfly Monitoring Program <https://urldefense.com/v3=
/__https://www.jeffpippen.com/butterflies/carolinasbmp/carbmp-protocols.htm=
__;!!OToaGQ!tQ6ypyS6-kSVs0VA6Tum7FITRhuaV_vSUDckw9iHhAcBYyAGgOkeLCIm4pIW4am=
lgg1Djad-0V999Dj1EN4FMew$ > | N. Am. Butterfly Monitoring Network <http=
s://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.thebutterflynetwork.org/__;!!OToaGQ!tQ6=
ypyS6-kSVs0VA6Tum7FITRhuaV_vSUDckw9iHhAcBYyAGgOkeLCIm4pIW4amlgg1Djad-0V999D=
j14BC93bc$ > | Jeff=E2=80=99s Nature Pages <https://urldefense.com/v3/_=
_https://www.jeffpippen.com/__;!!OToaGQ!tQ6ypyS6-kSVs0VA6Tum7FITRhuaV_vSUDc=
kw9iHhAcBYyAGgOkeLCIm4pIW4amlgg1Djad-0V999Dj1IgnhigU$ >


> On Mar 19, 2024, at 2:54=E2=80=AFPM, <hpazures...> (via carolinaleps M=
ailing List) <carolinaleps...> wrote:
>=20
> All:
>=20
> Removal of the Helicta Satyr as a species by Pelham (via Butterflies of A=
merica) was premature. This was based on a paper by John Calhoun, which qu=
estioned whether the original illustration of Helicta Satyr represented a s=
pecies or just a variant illustration of Georgia Satyr. Ron Gatrelle "elev=
ated" Neonympha helicta to species rank in his 1998 paper as TTR 1(8). Pel=
ham followed Calhoun, though Calhoun simply said more work was needed.=20=20
>=20
> In conversations with Nick Grishin, his lab recently performed extensive =
genomic analysis of the Neonympha Satyrs throughout the eastern U.S. They =
found that Neonympha broke down into three distinct clades: mitchel li, are=
aolatus, and helicta. Three species.
>=20
> My point here is that, even the "experts" make premature conclusions. Mi=
stakes that reverberate thought subsequent literature and the bigger websit=
es. My suggestion is that folks continue to report/photograph what appears=
to be Helicta Satyr. Simply put, it is intermediate between Georgia Satyr=
and Mitchell's Satyr. Mitchell's has round spots; Georgia has elongated "=
banana" spots; Helicta has egg-shaped spots. Some Helicta individuals may =
even appear like Mitchell's Satyr.
>=20
> Yes, some individuals are difficult to place. This does not necessarily =
mean two species are conspecific. Keep in mind that, with closely-related =
sibling species, there may be individual variation in either species that c=
losely resembles the other.
>=20
> Harry Pavulaan


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=
=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mod=
e: space; line-break: after-white-space;">Hi Harry &amp; All,<div><br></div=
><div>Harry, thank you for the post! &nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>All, H=
elicta Satyr is a tough insect to find in NC, and as Harry said, it=E2=80=
=99s a great one to be on the lookout for and to get photos for verificatio=
n if possible.</div><div><br></div><div>Here=E2=80=99s a webpage with photo=
s and extra information to help identify both Georgia and Helicta Satyrs</d=
iv><div><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.j=
effpippen.com/butterflies/georgiasatyr.htm__;!!OToaGQ!tQ6ypyS6-kSVs0VA6Tum7=
FITRhuaV_vSUDckw9iHhAcBYyAGgOkeLCIm4pIW4amlgg1Djad-0V999Dj1gXHWGco$">https:=
//www.jeffpippen.com/butterflies/georgiasatyr.htm</a><br id=3D"lineBreakAtB=
eginningOfMessage"><div>
<meta charset=3D"UTF-8"><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0=
); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-ind=
ent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -we=
bkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; overflow-wrap: break-wo=
rd; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div dir=3D"a=
uto" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacin=
g: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white=
-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-dec=
oration: none; overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-br=
eak: after-white-space;"><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-in=
dent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -w=
ebkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; overflow-wrap: break-w=
ord; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div dir=3D"=
auto" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spaci=
ng: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; whit=
e-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-de=
coration: none; overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-b=
reak: after-white-space;"><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0,=
0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-i=
ndent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -=
webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; overflow-wrap: break-=
word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div dir=3D=
"auto" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spac=
ing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; whi=
te-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-d=
ecoration: none; overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-=
break: after-white-space;"><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0=
, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-=
indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; overflow-wrap: break=
-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div style=
=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-in=
dent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -w=
ebkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:=
space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform=
: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after=
-white-space;"><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; t=
ext-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: norm=
al; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; overflow-wrap: break=
-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div><br><=
/div><div>There have been VERY few reports in the last 15+ years. &nbsp;The=
most recent reports are from counties along or near the =E2=80=9CFall Line=
=E2=80=9D (between the Piedmont and Coastal Plain provinces).</div><div><br=
></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><d=
iv>Cheers,</div><div>Jeff</div><div><div><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"overflo=
w-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space=
;"><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:=
space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"overflow=
-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;=
"><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"overflow-=
wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"=
><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: s=
pace; line-break: after-white-space;"><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"overflow-w=
rap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;">=
<div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-bre=
ak: after-white-space;"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nb=
sp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap=
: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><di=
v>--</div><div>Jeffrey S. Pippen</div><div>Mebane, NC&nbsp;</div><div>Direc=
tor,&nbsp;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.jeffpippen.com=
/butterflies/carolinasbmp/carbmp-protocols.htm__;!!OToaGQ!tQ6ypyS6-kSVs0VA6=
Tum7FITRhuaV_vSUDckw9iHhAcBYyAGgOkeLCIm4pIW4amlgg1Djad-0V999Dj1EN4FMew$">Ca=
rolinas Butterfly Monitoring Program</a>&nbsp; &nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;<a href=
=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.thebutterflynetwork.org/__;!!OT=
oaGQ!tQ6ypyS6-kSVs0VA6Tum7FITRhuaV_vSUDckw9iHhAcBYyAGgOkeLCIm4pIW4amlgg1Dja=
d-0V999Dj14BC93bc$">N. Am. Butterfly Monitoring Network</a>&nbsp; &nbsp;| &=
nbsp;&nbsp;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.jeffpippen.co=
m/__;!!OToaGQ!tQ6ypyS6-kSVs0VA6Tum7FITRhuaV_vSUDckw9iHhAcBYyAGgOkeLCIm4pIW4=
amlgg1Djad-0V999Dj1IgnhigU$">Jeff=E2=80=99s Nature Pages</a></div><div><br>=
</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></d=
iv><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Mar 19, 2024, at 2:54=E2=80=
=AFPM, <hpazures...> (via carolinaleps Mailing List) &lt;carolinaleps@du=
ke.edu&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div><d=
iv class=3D"yahoo-style-wrap" style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:16px;"><=
div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">All:</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdi=
r=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">Removal of the=
Helicta Satyr as a species by Pelham (via Butterflies of America) was prem=
ature.&nbsp; This was based on a paper by John Calhoun, which questioned wh=
ether the original illustration of Helicta Satyr represented a species or j=
ust a variant illustration of Georgia Satyr.&nbsp; Ron Gatrelle "elevated" =
Neonympha helicta to species rank in his 1998 paper as TTR 1(8).&nbsp; Pelh=
am followed Calhoun, though Calhoun simply said more work was needed.&nbsp;=
&nbsp;</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"lt=
r" data-setdir=3D"false">In conversations with Nick Grishin, his lab recent=
ly performed extensive genomic analysis of the Neonympha Satyrs throughout =
the eastern U.S.&nbsp; They found that Neonympha broke down into three dist=
inct clades: mitchel
li, areaolatus, and helicta.&nbsp; Three species.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" da=
ta-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">My poi=
nt here is that, even the "experts" make premature conclusions.&nbsp; Mista=
kes that reverberate thought subsequent literature and the bigger websites.=
&nbsp; My suggestion is that folks continue to report/photograph what appea=
rs to be Helicta Satyr.&nbsp; Simply put, it is intermediate between Georgi=
a Satyr and Mitchell's Satyr.&nbsp; Mitchell's has round spots; Georgia has=
elongated "banana" spots; Helicta has egg-shaped spots.&nbsp; Some Helicta=
individuals may even appear like Mitchell's Satyr.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" d=
ata-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">Yes, =
some individuals are difficult to place.&nbsp; This does not necessarily me=
an two species are conspecific.&nbsp; Keep in mind that, with closely-relat=
ed sibling species, there may be individual variation in either species tha=
t closely resembles the other.</div><di v=3D"" dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"f=
alse"><br></di></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">Harry Pavulaan<=
/div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>=

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